my conversation with a Wyeth sales rep

I must begin by saying, I am still sick, hence the reason why I am posting this here. Either out of complete boredom or something much deeper. I am not sure. Either way, the story goes like this:

(all names/places will be changed because I know Wyeth will be snooping around here like Eli Lilly and the others do. BARNEY will be the high school friend/Wyeth employee, our school/town that we grew up in will be called FRUIT LOOPS)

Today I posted this story from the New York Times on my Facebook page and a guy I went to high school with made several comments-which I will re-post all below. I took this a little too far and couldn’t let it go. This guy was pushing my buttons, of course, and I’ve been a guinea pig for Big Pharma for 20 some years now, so was it okay that I couldn’t let it go? I will say that I did delete him as a “friend” and I suspect he will respond to my last message and then I must…well, I don’t know…LET IT GO and block him. Over the last 5 years I had to take control of my mind and body. I stopped trusting most of my doctors, psychiatrists and certainly pharmaceutical companies. If you don’t know why I did this-I would suggest checking out my previous entries. I feel this blog is an outlet but also a place to possibly open one set of eyes/ears. Anything is possible. We all know there are so many of us that have left the “dark side” and began to question the very people we should trust. So, here’s the conversation and I’d love to know your thoughts. Oh, by the way, I had to type in CAPS (which I despise) during part of our conversation but it seemed the only way to respond to his last message.

From the NYTimes article:
“If Phenergan is exposed to arterial blood, it can cause swift and irreversible gangrene. For that reason, it is usually administered by intramuscular injection or intravenous drip. This time, a physician’s assistant used a third method, injecting the drug into what she thought was a vein, a method known as “IV push.”

BARNEY: The Physician’s Asst used what appears to be an approved and not-indicated route of administration into what she thought was a vein and yet the drug company is liable? Maybe people should actually read the government approved product labeling and warnings next time.

ME: or maybe…just maybe…it would be nice to see people stop DYING from so many big pharma drugs. Zyprexa, Seroquel…ring a bell? you get my point and I’m sure you disagree but that’s okay. Ever heard of Rebecca Riley? google her. period. blaming the patient is cruel. i know the tactics big pharma uses on a daily basis and soon the world will know.

BARNEY: Rebecca Riley’s parents killed her. I googled her and her mom is in prison. How is it the drug company’s fault that her parents caused her to overdose. That’s a ridiculous case to make your point. Zyprexa and Seroquel are both still on the market and helping millions of patients. I’m not blaming the patient who lost her arm. I’m blaming the caregiver that IV pushed the product. Pharma has its problems but its not to be blamed for every thing that goes wrong in the world. It still spends billions of dollars each year on research for new products and it has helped save more lives than it has ever hurt. Rebecca Riley? A 4 year old who was killed by her parents. Horrible comparison.

ME: Look, I’m pretty sure you work for a pharmaceutical company and good for you, I understand you defending them. I don’t solely blame Big Pharma but they are usually behind all of these stories. The one I posted, the Rebecca Riley’s of the world, my grandmother’s death, etc. Do you know how many CHILDREN are on dangerous psychiatric medications? MILLIONS. It is quite frightening as we know their sweet, innocent brains are still developing. Zyprexa and Seroquel should be off the market. They are DANGEROUS medications— you have to know about the lawsuits! The meds are killing men, women and children. Just for record, Rebecca Riley’s mother was following her doctor’s orders, who has since quit practicing medicine I believe. But, what kind of doctor would prescribe Seroquel, Depakote and Clonidine to a 4-year old??? Her mother did not write those prescriptions. This is part of the problem…some doctors have forgotten the Hippocratic oath. It’s all about the quick fix and you know it. And then you must factor in, I’m sorry, but Big Pharma. Seas of pharma reps with samples (usually anti-psychotics or anti-depressants) bribing doctors, we have more and more corrupt doctors (think Joe Biederman) and Big Pharma is HIDING deadly information from doctors AND patients (AstraZeneca and Seroquel, Eli Lilly and Zyprexa) So, actually, no, her parents did not kill her-she was 4 yrs old and over-medicated by her doctor. Remember the good old days when we could trust our family doctor? Did you ever think that Rebecca’s mother was simply trusting her doctor???? One last thing- my sister has a rare disease, I have nieces with CF-I know the wonders of western medicine. But I also know (very well) the corruption of Big Pharma. By the way, would you give Seroquel or Zyprexa to one of your children? Think about that. and then (maybe) you’ll understand why it infuriates me to see Big Pharma PUSHING these drugs.

BARNEY: I do work for a drug company. I sell antidepressants. I’m not too familiar w/ Seroquel or Zyprexa. However, I ask again how the drug makers are responsible for a doctor prescribing a 4 year old girl 10 pills a day? Seroquel is not indicated for children. It is made quite clear in its product labeling that safety has not been studied in children. The doc was prescribing off-label. Unfortunately a child died here but it was of no fault to the drug companies. Also, as with many cases of patients suffering from depression, bipolar, and schizophrenia they are at a higher risk of suicide. Sometimes it happens. It’s unfortunate, it is tragic. But Seroquel and Zyprexa are not dangerous drugs when taken within the correct product labeling. There is a reason drug companies publish their product labeling. It is to give a guide to doctors. One of my products was only indicated to 225 mg. Many docs prescribed it to over 400 mg. I cannot control that. I can only advise against. I wouldn’t allow antipsychotics to be prescribed to my children but that’s my decision. In 8 years I have never bribed a doctor or seen a doctor bribed. I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen but it’s not a common practice. It is more or less rogue reps doing anything and everything for the prescription. Not my cup of tea. I present information and allow docs to make their decisions. Again, it is bad to lump all sales professionals into the same category due to a few stragglers.

ME: Well, I see we could go on and on here. But it’s moot. I KNOW WHY you would not allow your children to take Zyprexa or Seroquel. (DIABETES, ZOMBIELIKE, DEATH) But let me ask you this since you clearly stated you think these two drugs are helping “millions”- are you familiar with the Seroquel or Zyprexa documents?? I’ve read the internal documents, have you? The illegal tactics. And from those tactics, now there are (thankfully) more and more lawsuits against the pharmaceutical companies for the many deaths they have caused. We are seeing more investigations, FINALLY!! I’m not lumping all “sales professionals” into the same category-but I will say this-if I chose your industry as my own, well, I’d be a little concerned right now because it is not just a few stragglers. that is a fact. Not to mention, again, the millions of children on these horrific drugs which is inexcusable-if you ever read those internal documents-you will see that Big Pharma has known all along.

BARNEY: I would not put my own children on these drugs at a young age because I’m not sure you can correctly diagnose bipolar disorder at such a young age. Maybe its possible. However, it is tough to distinguish depression and bipolar in adults. Now a psych is distinguishing between bipolar, add, adhd and depression in a 3 year old? Bribing is not widespread…at least not from what I’ve seen. And, drug companies do know the patient type that is on the medication. They receive prescription data for review. Drug companies can only mandate that reps do not promote product off-label. If doctors choose to prescribe products off-label then that is their own discretion and not the drug companies. Physicians have the right to choose how to prescribe each medication to which patient and to what dosage level. I’ve seen crazy doses of medications that I cannot believe. But I’m not the one prescribing it or promoting it. I know I’m not going to change your mind nor are you going to change mind. But I do enjoy debating the issue with you. You are a fun opponent. Your facts are a little off but that’s okay, maybe you could become a politician.

ME: which facts are off? you haven’t read the internal Eli Lilly and AstraZeneca docs, have you? oh well, don’t answer, I truly don’t care anymore. this is absolutely pointless but in my case, very, very sad. and i say sad because i know (it seems more than you do and that is scary) the dangers of the drugs you sell. i have lived w/the outcome, family members have and millions have had their lives destroyed or they have died, Barney. and this all seems like a GAME or a high school debate to you with your “fun opponent” comment and politician smiley face! this is not fun nor is this a game…..so, yeah, have fun selling. keep blaming the doctors and the parents. keep your blinders on and don’t worry or think about the people your drugs are hurting and killing.

BARNEY: First, you do not know more than me about the drugs that I sell. I do not sell Zyprexa or Seroquel. I work for Wyeth. I sell Pristiq and Protonix. I use to sell Effexor XR. Anytime you’d like to challenge my knowledge on any of these products I will gladly be available. Again you have proven yourself to only look at things with your blinders and lump all pharma reps into the same category by saying you know more than me about “my” products. I have no interest in Zyprexa or Seroquel. I do not sell nor compete w/ these products. You can continue to say that these drugs kill people but I’d like to know the percentage of people that have been killed by these products compared to the number of people that say “these products have saved my life. I’m able to function again” Your facts are only what you want to believe and what you read from opinion papers and data. If these products were killing people on a regular basis, they would be pulled from the market…like Vioxx, like Redux, etc.

After this back and forth, I deleted him as a “friend” and sent him this message:

Effexor XR? really. wow. nice withdrawal symptoms. How often did you inform your doctors about the nasty withdrawal symptoms? Effexor is a horrible drug. How do I know? I’ve been on it. And Celexa (don’t get me started on those side effects) and Prozac and Paxil before the shit hit the fan with them and Big Pharma decided it was time they started pushing antipsychotics for depression. Big Pharma did that Barney, not the doctors.

I continue to mention Zyprexa and Seroquel because you said they help MILLIONS and that is complete crap. I know too many people that know it is a bunch of lies. I have been on Seroquel-I gained 40 pounds in 2 months, Barney. I slept 16-18 hours a day. My doctor KNEW diabetes ran in my family and yet she kept me on the drug until I weaned myself off w/o her permission. She told me the data she was given from her pharma rep said there were no links to diabetes, this was back in 2002. What do we find out now??? Astrazeneca has known since 1997 about the weight gain and diabetes and they HID it. I have read the internal emails from Astrazeneca employees. Not from opinion papers and data!!! Your “knowledge” of the products you SELL is based on what your company TELLS you about these medications, therefore it is not knowledge. If someone is depressed, one would hope a person with a mental illness, whether it be “bipolar” or clinical depression, etc….one would HOPE that the side effects would not consist of things like, suicidal tendencies, depression, anxiety, etc. You KNOW (somewhere deep down) that antidepressants and antipsychotics are PUSHED now more than ever because they make your company and other companies BILLIONS. But now, okay, trust me-Zyprexa and Seroquel will be pulled eventually-once the corruption is finally out there! Big Pharma is getting sued left and right-it’s bad and you know it. Big Pharma does not want the sick to get better, they want to keep them sick. And how ironic that the maker of an antipsychotic (their #1 selling drug) leads to weight gain and diabetes and their #2 selling drug treats diabetes. Coincidence? Absolutely not.
(note: I hope the latter information was correct but I believe it is-someone could help me out here)

So, I have been living with these facts and this life since before you and I ever met. I have lost family members to the drugs you sell or should I say the companies you defend.

You have really pissed me off and saddened me with your jokes-you know nothing about me or my history and my own research. and yet it makes total sense how people like you can sleep at night. Have a nice life.

email to Barney in response to his reply:

Barney,

This will be my last email because it’s entirely too toxic and I think you’re having fun with it. Or at least you hinted at that before. Since you haven’t really responded to a lot of my points (Rebecca Riley’s parents DID NOT KILL HER, internal pharma emails where they HID data and you can find online, etc.) I am cutting and pasting your email, I will respond in caps and then this will be over and we can move on. If you’re wondering (or care) why this is so important to me, well, let’s just say….put yourself in my shoes. I’ve been in therapy since I was 13. I was raped by a guy you know, a few years ahead of us, at 15. I saw my maternal grandmother die entirely too young in 1992 after years and years of pills (for depression) that only made her sicker and led to her death. I have personally spent tens of thousands of dollars on just about every anti-depressant that’s been on the market since the early 90s. I’ve had a therapist fall asleep on me. I’ve seen the BEST and WORST psychiatrists that money could buy. I’ve read stories of Big Pharma hiring former cheerleaders from UK. I know the game all too well. You could say I’ve been living with an incurable cancer my entire life and it’s always been swept under the rug (esp. during my days in FRUIT LOOPS) Having said all of that, I am disappointed, exhausted and I feel betrayed every time I read a new story about the corrupt behaviors of Big Pharma. I have been their guinea pig for too long. Ironically, of everything I’ve tried, and I’ve tried pretty much everything-acupuncture is the ONLY thing that got me to where I am now-ALIVE and doing well. I am not a doctor, I know this. However, I have many years of experience and I will be educating people and opening their eyes until the day I die, I do this for one very important person…I do this for my late grandmother. She is my hero and in my heart every single day I wake and was with me in my heart every time throughout my life when I wanted to give up. So, here we go, in response to your last message:

BARNEY: Effexor XR has a short half-life so there will be withdrawal symptoms. I discussed it every day with my docs. Effexor XR is the #1 prescribed antidepressant in the world because it works. It works great. Does it work for every single person in the world? No, of course not. However, anytime you put a foreign substance into your body you risk having side effects. There is not a drug around that side effect free.

ME: BUT HOW CAN YOU, IN GOOD CONSCIENCE, SELL DRUGS THAT PRODUCE EVEN MORE DEPRESSIVE SIDE-EFFECTS? ANXIETY, PANIC ATTACKS, SUICIDAL THOUGHTS/TENDENCIES, DEPRESSION. EFFEXOR XR IS KNOWN BY PATIENTS TO BE A VERY DIFFICULT DRUG TO COME OFF OF WITH NO WARNING BY DOCTORS OR LABELS IN REGARDS TO WITHDRAWALS. PATIENTS ARE TYPICALLY GIVEN A SAMPLE PACK (MADE HANDY BY SALES PEOPLE LIKE YOU) AND GIVEN NO INFORMATION-EVEN WHEN ASKED. AND BESIDES- ISN’T EFFEXOR LOSING IT’S PATENT???? ALSO, IT SEEMS I RECALL A LETTER SENT TO WYETH FROM THE FDA IN REGARDS TO AN EFFEXOR AD BACK IN 2007. I’M SURE YOU REMEMBER THAT. ANTI-DEPRESSANTS SHOULD MAKE SOMEONE LESS DEPRESSED AND NOT JUST TEMPORARILY. WHEN THEY DO WORK, ONE ALWAYS HITS A PLATEAU. THAT’S NOT WHAT AN INFORMED PERSON WOULD CALL, WORKING GREAT!

BARNEY: My knowledge of my products and the disease states I study is from my own studying. I’ve read almost every published study in the past 8 years looking at antidepressants. My company provides me marketing tools and pieces. I promote off of clinical, peer-reviewed, published data.

ME: AND WHAT PUBLISHED STUDIES MIGHT THESE BE? COULD THEY BE WRITTEN BY DOCTORS PAID OFF BY OR ON STAFF WITH THE PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY? DO YOU EVER SIT DOWN AND LISTEN TO PATIENTS??? IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE THE MESSENGER, THE MAN DELIVERING THESE MEDICATIONS, IT IS YOUR DUTY TO LISTEN TO PATIENTS, AS WELL AS THE GOOD DOCTORS. AND MARKETING TOOLS-THAT IN ITSELF IS PATHETIC WHEN IT COMES TO ANTI-DEPRESSANTS. SUDDENLY WE ARE LIVING IN A SOCIETY WHERE WE ARE TOLD WE MIGHT HAVE THIS OR THAT. IT SHOULDN’T WORK THAT WAY. YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE TO MARKET ANTI-DEPRESSANTS. DOCTORS THESE DAYS PUSH WHATEVER IS HOT-AND THAT IS WHATEVER YOU ARE SELLING. PATIENTS ARE GUINEA PIGS.

BARNEY: If someone is already depressed and they are given an antidepressant that suddenly gives them energy there is a chance they could kill themselves. That is why each antidepressant comes with a black box warning. As you are aware, depression is a serious illness that affects 35 million people. Each antidepressant affects each person differently. That is why there are choices. Drugs are put through 8 – 15 years of studies. Drug companies are not intentionally trying to kill people. Neither are automakers but people die every day. Are you enraged that automakers continue to sell cars and promote safety when children, families, adults are dying each day?

FIRST OF ALL, I KNOW ABOUT SUICIDE ALL TOO WELL, UNFORTUNATELY. I DISAGREE ON THE STATS SIMPLY BECAUSE NO STUDY REALLY KNOWS THE NUMBER OF THE MENTALLY ILL. HOWEVER, BIG PHARMA IS DOING THEIR BEST VIA ADVERTISING TO MAKE PEOPLE THINK “LITTLE JOHNNY OR SUSIE” MIGHT BE BIPOLAR OR DEPRESSED, ETC. AND IF BIG PHARMA IS SPENDING SO MUCH MONEY ON ADVERTISING, ER, I MEAN RESEARCH-DON’T YOU THINK AFTER ALL THESE YEARS THEY COULD COME UP WITH SOMETHING THAT DOESN’T REQUIRE A BLACK BOX OR DOESN’T HAVE HORRIFIC SIDE EFFECTS OR WITHDRAWALS? I DON’T HEAR MY FATHER COMPLAINING ABOUT HIS BLOOD PRESSURE MEDICINE SIDE EFFECTS, ETC, ETC. HA! I WOULD NOT COMPARE BIG PHARMA TO AUTOMAKERS-BARNEY, BIG PHARMA SHOULD BE COMPARED TO BIG TOBACCO AND WE KNOW HOW THAT STORY ENDED. I BELIEVE THE SAME WILL HAPPEN WITH BIG PHARMA IN REGARDS TO PSYCHIATRIC DRUGS-IT’S ALREADY STARTED TO HAPPEN, ACTUALLY.

BARNEY: You are right. I know nothing about you or your history. And, you no nothing about me, my morals, my knowledge or the way I converse with the doctors that are my customers. Yet you continue to insinuate and lump me into the same box as all the rest.

ME: THIS ALL STARTED WHEN YOU BLAMED THE PATIENT. YOU BLAMED THE PATIENTS AND I AM SIMPLY STATING THE PATIENTS ARE VICTIMS HERE. PEOPLE DON’T WANT TO LIVE THIS WAY. THEY WANT TO FEEL AS “NORMAL” AS POSSIBLE. TO QUOTE YOU FROM THE BEGINNING OF OUR DIALOGUE: “Maybe people should actually read the government approved product labeling and warnings next time.” THEN YOU SAID ZYPREXA AND SEROQUEL HELP MILLIONS. YOU SAID IT AND IT IS A LIE. THEY MIGHT STOP MILLIONS FROM SUICIDE OR HARMING THEMSELVES BUT THEY WILL NOW EITHER DIE FROM COMPLICATIONS OF DIABETES OR BE SEDATED THE REST OF THEIR LIVES-AND YES EVEN ON PROPER DOSAGES. I GAINED 40 PDS IN TWO MONTHS ON A VERY LOW DOSAGE OF SEROQUEL. AND I MUST ADD-FDA BLACK BOX LABELING USUALLY COMES A LITTLE TOO LATE IN MY OPINION.

BARNEY: I sleep great every night. Each week I walk into a doctors office and a patient or a nurse or a doctor tells me that they’re on one of my products or know someone who is. They thank me and tell me that my product has improved their life. So while I’m saddened when I hear how bitter and angry you are at the industry (and apparently you have every right to be) I know that tomorrow I’m going out to talk to doctors and I’m going to hear another success story about how my product made someone’s life better.

I HAVE NO DOUBT AT ALL THAT YOU SLEEP GREAT AT NIGHT. AND I AM HAPPY FOR YOU-SERIOUSLY. BUT, HOW OFTEN DO YOU CHECK BACK ON THAT PATIENT’S STATUS? I WOULD HOPE MORE THAN ONCE. YOU SHOULD CHECK BACK ON THAT SAME PATIENT NUMEROUS TIMES OVER A TWO YEAR PERIOD. MOST EVERYONE FEELS GREAT AT FIRST. I WOULD BET MY LIFE (IN ALL SERIOUSNESS) THAT WITH THESE PEOPLE YOU ARE TALKING TO-THE DRUG STOPPED WORKING EVENTUALLY OR THEY WERE LEFT TO DEAL WITH HORRIFIC SIDE EFFECTS AND THAT IS NOT RIGHT. PERIOD. WHAT USUALLY HAPPENS AND I KNOW YOU KNOW THIS-THE DRUG STOPS WORKING AND THE DOC EITHER A) PUTS THEM ON SOMETHING ELSE-THE NEW POPULAR DRUG. B) ADDS ANOTHER DRUG OR DRUGS TO THE MIX OR C) CHANGES THE DOSAGE-USUALLY UPPING IT.

FINALLY, THERE IS A SERIOUS CHILD BIPOLAR EPIDEMIC GOING ON AND IT NEEDS TO STOP. YOU ARE A FATHER. CHILDREN SHOULD NOT BE ON THESE DRUGS. HAVE YOU TOLD YOUR DOCTORS THAT? IF YOU HAVE AND THEY DON’T LISTEN-WHAT’S THE POINT OF YOUR POSITION???

WE, THE PATIENTS, HAVE A RIGHT TO BE BITTER AND ANGRY BUT ALSO VERY SAD. DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH BIG PHARMA SPENDS A YEAR ON ADVERTISING? FROM ADVERTISING-PARENT GOES TO DOCTOR-DOCTOR PRESCRIBES “POPULAR” DRUG AND THE CYCLE CONTINUES…BUT IT ALL STARTS WITH A COMMERCIAL PAID FOR BY YOUR COMPANY!!!! AND THAT IS A BIG PROBLEM.

ANYWAY, HERE ARE A FEW THINGS I’D LOVE FOR YOU TO LOOK AT-WHETHER YOU DO OR NOT IS SOLELY UP TO YOU:

I’M SURE YOU’RE FAMILIAR WITH THIS ONE AND I’M ASSUMING YOU’RE NOT A FAN OF DANIEL CARLAT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/magazine/25memoir-t.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

I listed many other links and he has not responded.